How-To Use Guns Responsibly on a Film Set
- Details
- Created on Tuesday, 04 November 2008 20:00
- Last Updated on Friday, 14 December 2012 20:15
- Written by Administrator
- Hits: 4874
The following was taken from a Konvas.org user discussion on how to be safe with firearms on a film set. Please note that it should only be used as a quick guideline, and not as a sole source of safety information:
On November 01, 2008 at 11:08PM (EST), Adam Frey wrote:
There have been some extremely interesting off-topic conversations the past few days...
The Mac-10 & TEC-9 are the two that we always called "crazy guns". The barrels were too short for any kind of accurate fire, but that was okay because the guns were too light and small to hold them in place and shoot accurately anyway.
So basically, the formula for shooting and hitting the target is as follows: Point the gun towards the direction you want to shoot. Close your eyes. Pull the trigger. Open eyes and see what you hit; with a 30 round clip, you very well may have...
Btw: A real UZI is *extremely* heavy. It's a heckuva thick chunk of metal.
What's this have to do with Russian Mopic Cameras? Absolutely Nothing. But it could make for an interesting short film project or documentary for someone, if they so dare...
Kinor 35C 35mm Motion Picture Camera
On November 01, 2008 at 11:17PM (EST), Peter Haas wrote in response:
Actually, there is a connection ... sort of.
Just as we often have to "make do" in the camera department, we also often have to "make do" in the physical effects departments.
Such as modifying an AK-47 to shoot blank rounds in full-automatic mode.
I'm sure a modified MAC-10 or TEC-9 would be similar.
Just make sure the full-auto selector is discarded before the ATF guy comes by for an inspection.
On November 02, 2008 at 09:40AM (EST), H.W. Stone wrote in response:
Better yet, do it the right way, the legal way-- find someone with an NFA registered weapon and use him.
Violating the law is not on my list of movie skills.
On November 02, 2008 at 09:54AM (EST), H.W. Stone wrote in response:
From what you said, Adam, I presume that you refer to a subgroup of "semi automatic pistols intended to look like the real SMG class but without buttstocks used by people who have no idea what the {deleted} they are doing" instead of the real M-10/45 or M-10/9 used by someone who knows what they are doing.
With an M10, stock extended, and suppressor in place the "norm" after a three day training session is for "in excess of" 90% three round target engagement at fifty to one hundred twenty five meters against "man" sized targets. It is not uncommon for an experienced shooter to put all thirty rounds on a man target at two hundred meters. That is something I consider "accurate" delivery.
Let me assure you that if I ever see someone close his eyes to shoot my first move is to disarm him, using force if needed-- that is unacceptable in so many ways it is hard to even make the list, and is a real and present danger, even if "blanks" are all that are used.
And BTW, "blanks" are deadly items when misused-- BLANKS CAN KILL.
And they can cause severe injury, permanent damage that is crippling, and pain and suffering that will haunt you.
Having a serious Armorer or Firearms Safety and Control person on set is VITAL, even if you are using toy guns.
Otherwise people die.
Krasnogorsk-k3 16mm Motion Picture Camera
On November 02, 2008 at 01:21PM (EST), Adam Frey wrote in response:
>> Such as modifying an AK-47 to shoot blank rounds in full-automatic mode.
Peter,
I thought, in film anyway, "modifying" an AK-47 was to shoot a blank while shooting at least 25 frames per second, then capturing a second shot from the barrel from another angle. Then in post, playing thru the flame, skipping back two frames, and repeating the flame again. Then cutting to the second angle and doing the same. You can show four rounds firing, which seems to be enough to fool the viewer into thinking that they are seeing an entire clip burst. Usually works for me. And you don't have to worry about getting arrested!
The nice thing about AK-47s is that they use the 7.62x39mm round, which has enough "flame" to look really good when captured on film.
OTOH, 9mm blanks are extremely unpredictable. You'll have issues capturing the flame/smoke with anything less than 32fps - and even at 32fps, you may not capture the flame, depending on the individual round. Some of the cheaper ones are notorious for blowing up in the chamber - and you can hear them when they do, as they are twice as loud and the the pitch is higher. You often have issues getting them out of the chamber as well, since the brass is expanded and pushed tight up against the chamber walls...
Of course, you can always go the safe and easy way and add your flames in post production. Much, much, much safer than bringing a live round of any sort to a film set. Realistically speaking, sound is the probably better seller of the shot anyway...
btw: For those that don't know, a blank round (ie, one that does not fire a projectile) does not have enough backwards pressure to push the bolt back. If the bolt doesn't go back (and subsequently forth), it can not reload another round, thus only one round is fired at a time. This means the person holding the gun needs to manually operate the bolt and reload a fresh round. A blank round does have enough force to kill a person though, so be extremely careful and treat a blank round with as much respect as any other round.
>> And BTW, "blanks" are deadly items when misused-- BLANKS CAN KILL. And they can cause severe injury, permanent damage that is crippling, and pain and suffering that will haunt you.
Absolutely agreed,
Being extremely respectful of guns and what they are capable of, here are a few things that I let people know:
1) Guns are not toys.
2) Never point a gun at anything unless you plan on shooting/killing it.
3) When a gun has live rounds, the safety is always considered OFF.
4) The gun remains pointed at the ground at all times, until it is being aimed at the target.
5) Until the words "Clear" and "Safe" are spoken in reference to the chamber, magazine, and bolt, and the guns are placed in their respective carrying cases and a lock put on them, all guns are still considered live.
6) A blank is still a live round (aka, a deadly round) - it just travels less distance (ie., it has less range).
7) Trust people that are familiar with guns EVEN LESS than people that are unfamiliar with guns! Cops and hunters have many, many gun related accidents every year - and they are all extremely familiar with guns. About 15 years ago, I knew a law enforcement officer (with over 20 years in the force) that shot a hole in the side of my father's truck because he "thought the gun was unloaded" and pulled the trigger to check...
8) Anyone unsafe with his/her gun WILL get a heavy-handed fist across his/her chops - and I'm NOT going to pay for the dental visit!
On November 02, 2008 at 01:33PM (EST), Peter Haas wrote:
>> btw: For those that don't know, a blank round (ie, one that does not fire a projectile) does not have enough backwards pressure to push the bolt back.
The AK-47 was not a good example. It is gas-operated.
A better bet would be a recoil-operated gun, possibly one of the 9mms.
Ostcam 35mm Motion Picture Movie Camera
On November 02, 2008 at 01:40PM (EST), H.W. Stone wrote:
Adding a few things below--
>>> Such as modifying an AK-47 to shoot blank rounds in full-automatic mode.
>>Peter,
>>I thought, in film anyway, "modifying" an AK-47 was to shoot a blank while shooting at least 25 frames per second, then capturing a second shot from the barrel from another angle. Then in post, playing thru the flame, skipping back two frames, and repeating the flame again. Then cutting to the second angle and doing the same. You can show four rounds firing, which seems to be enough to fool the viewer into thinking that they are seeing an entire clip burst. Usually works for me. And you don't have to worry about getting arrested!
Please don't even consider modifying a weapon to full auto status.
>>OTOH, 9mm blanks are extremely unpredictable. You'll have issues capturing the flame/smoke with anything less than 32fps - and even at 32fps, you may not capture the flame, depending on the individual round. Some of the cheaper ones are notorious for blowing up in the chamber - and you can hear them when they do, as they are twice as loud and the the pitch is higher. You often have issues getting them out of the chamber as well, since the brass is expanded and pushed tight up against the chamber walls...
Here we get into blank firing weapons and live weapons firing blanks. Don't use a live weapon with blanks unless it has the correct mods to work, and an Armorer is on the job, before, during, and afterwards.
>>Of course, you can always go the safe and easy way and add your flames in post production. Much, much, much safer than bringing a live round of any sort to a film set. Realistically speaking, sound is the probably better seller of the shot anyway...
>>btw: For those that don't know, a blank round (ie, one that does not fire a projectile) does not have enough backwards pressure to push the bolt back. If the bolt doesn't go back (and subsequently forth), it can not reload another round, thus only one round is fired at a time. This means the person holding the gun needs to manually operate the bolt and reload a fresh round. A blank round does have enough force to kill a person though, so be extremely careful and treat a blank round with as much respect as any other round.
A simple barrel with a severly restricted port in it will allow a blank to cycle a blowback weapon, and in blowback weapons the 'look' is more or less real, but I would suggest the 8mm blank only weapons made for motion picture-- that will not chamber ANY live ammunition made. They cycle, they look right, and you get away from the idiot loaded 9mm blanks that keep showing up. And yes, they cost, yes, the ammo is more-- but the funerals are fewer.
>>> 8) Anyone unsafe with his/her gun WILL get a heavy-handed fist across his/her chops - and I'm NOT going to pay for the dental visit!
As for number eight?
You may be more gentle than I am.
Kinor 35C 35mm Motion Picture Camera
On November 02, 2008 at 11:08PM (EST), H.W. Stone wrote:
>>> btw: For those that don't know, a blank round (ie, one that does not fire a projectile) does not have enough backwards pressure to push the bolt back.
>>The AK-47 was not a good example. It is gas-operated.
If you drill out the front one half inch of bore from the front, thread it, and put in a threaded plug with a 1.5mm hole in it the residual gas pressure from a "funeral blank" or parade blank will operate the Ak-47 family. Once the plug is removed it will still function as a live gun-- but loading a live round with the plug in place creates pressure that turns the AK into a hand grenade you have against your cheek-- NOT GOOD.
>>A better bet would be a recoil-operated gun, possibly one of the 9mms.
Recoil operated weapons are not moved by pressure, but by recoil force. In dealing with a recoil operated weapon-- If you plug the barrel, completely, and fire a non projectile cartridge in the barrel there is NO recoil, but pressure exists, and is highly dangerous. If an undersized lead weight were driven forward by a spring "recoil" is created, and if you had "a lead weight resembling a pencil" and a very powerful spring you could create enough recoil to operate the mechanism-- but with ZERO pressure.
Blowback weapons operate by gas column pressure, the case being a disposable piston, and the gas pressure drives the bolt or piston rearward.
In live weapons this is because the bullet blocks the forward end of the column, and the case pushes the bolt rearward, the bullet exiting before the case clears the chamber-- thus pressure dropping to a safe level while the rearward momentum continues the extraction and ejection cycle.
In the 8mm movie blank guns there is a restricted forward port, and timing is used to make sure the pressure has dropped to a safe level by the time the case seal is removed. Many of the 8mm movie pistols LOOK just like the live guns, but are blowback in operation.
Please, please, please-- go with the 8mm movie guns, be it pistols, submachineguns, or the 8mm rifle blank only weapons.
While .22LR semi automatic weapons are easily converted to blank fire by the addition of a restrictor and use of "nail gun" blanks, I highly recommend against it unless you have years and years of experience in that particular aspect of machining, standards, and are willing to stand in front of it for testing.
Just go with the factory made guns, okay?
On November 02, 2008 at 05:42PM (EST), Olivier Satnet wrote:
Hi guys i just read this now and can say you than in the film "proof of life" (with russel crowe and Megg ryan, David Morse and Carusso)
i was camera operator and shoot a TON of Gun machines in front of me ....!
I was the target in close up with gun machine pointing me and other times i was the machine gun point of view ....... Machine guns were Ak47 and others "guerrilla guns" ....
(i am not an expert in killing machines ! and never shoot a gun ... But i can say you than NO post was needed to see fire going out each shot !
the "goods ones" Russel crowe , David carusso , shoot me too with "american stuff" ... visual effect was similar .... It was impressive because "false bullet" explotion expand some powder too ...at short distance ...i feel them on my face ! so extreme close ups were done with a Acrilyc mask protection ....
in youtube you can see it the soldier with gun machine his point of view is the picture below were it was the first time i SHOOT an "Bullet Arri "! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768NkS8Ezc4
On November 03, 2008 at 12:26PM (EST), Rick Garbutt wrote:
It's time I chimed in, what with my very modest understanding of firearms (but with a good grasp of physics and etymology):
>>>1) Guns are not toys.
Amen, brother! AAAA-men!
>>>2) Never point a gun at anything unless you plan on shooting/killing it.
Indeed. But if you just "have" to have that shot of the gun aimed directly into the camera, it's childishly simple to get: we use a device called, in the trade, a "mirror," and place it a reasonable distance in front of the muzzle, at 45º to the line of fire. Camera is 90º off to the side, out of harm's way. Shooter (the guy with the gun. The guy with the camera is NOT a "shooter," they're a CAMERAMAN! -Lord, how I hate that!) aims at the reflection of the lens in the mirror, and fires. Bingo. Of course, you have to make sure no one will be hit by flying shards of glass or plastic, and still be sure the line of fire is absolutely clear, but you can do the shot.
>>>...
>>> 7) Trust people that are familiar with guns EVEN LESS than people that are unfamiliar with guns! Cops and hunters have many, many gun related accidents every year - and they are all extremely familiar with guns. About 15 years ago, I knew a law enforcement officer (with over 20 years in the force) that shot a hole in the side of my father's truck because he "thought the gun was unloaded" and pulled the trigger to check...
And people wonder where the phrase "familiarity breeds contempt" comes from. As for the cited cop, he should also know you can find out a bullet is in the chamber by looking down the muzzle. Of course, if you pull the trigger while you do this, light can get in so you can better see the bullet in the chamber. About a microsecond before the slug goes into your brain.
Make it idiot-proof, and someone will always invent a better idiot.
All very sound, solid advice. I'd add a #9 as
9. Before ANY shot involving firearms, whether loaded with blanks or live ammo, is set up, there WILL be a full-on safety meeting on-set, chaired by the 1st AD, which EVERYONE will attend, during which all safety protocols will be made 100% clear. Anyone not attending this meeting in its entirety is BARRED from the set until it's all over. Non-essential personnel (including Friends of the Director and Buddies of the Producer) should also not be around. Best place to see it all is in a nice, comfy theater.
NOBODY's movie is worth getting hurt (or worse) for. And those misfortunes can be avoided. Play and work safely, folks!
Kinor 16CX-2M 16mm Motion Picture Camera
On November 03, 2008 at 08:54AM (EST), H.W. Stone wrote:
>>>Indeed. But if you just "have" to have that shot of the gun aimed directly into the camera, it's childishly simple to get: we use a device called, in the trade, a "mirror," and place it a reasonable distance in front of the muzzle, at 45º to the line of fire. Camera is 90º off to the side, out of harm's way. Shooter (the guy with the gun. The guy with the camera is NOT a "shooter," they're a CAMERAMAN! -Lord, how I hate that!) aims at the reflection of the lens in the mirror, and fires. Bingo. Of course, you have to make sure no one will be hit by flying shards of glass or plastic, and still be sure the line of fire is absolutely clear, but you can do the shot.
I prefer the wall and two mirror system. That way the camera is beside or even slightly behind the gun, a solid wall between the gun and camera-- just in case-- the first mirror at ninety degrees to reflect it into the second mirror, also at ninety. This means you don't need to flip the image in post, and if you use large mirrors, are careful not to shoot them, and balance your lighting you can have an actor on the camera side of the wall running toward the camera as the gunner behind him fires. Check the screenplay to see if the character lives or dies, but that way the actor is never in danger.
Except from himself.
Don't get me started on actors.
>>>And people wonder where the phrase "familiarity breeds contempt" comes from. As for the cited cop, he should also know you can find out a bullet is in the chamber by looking down the muzzle. Of course, if you pull the trigger while you do this, light can get in so you can better see the bullet in the chamber. About a microsecond before the slug goes into your brain.
Okay, this is a danger point, again-- and every couple of years someone tries this and finds out that bullets move really, really fast.
ONLY the older style single action and double action revolvers with a firing pin attached to the hammer let "more" light in via this method. So called modern transfer bar revolvers, rifles, shotguns, semiautomatic pistols DO NOT let more light in. They totally block all light coming from the rear, and this was second only to the "cock the weapon and/or pull the trigger to see which way the cylinder rotates method of shooting yourself in the face in front of witnesses.
>>>9. Before ANY shot involving firearms, whether loaded with blanks or live ammo, is set up, there WILL be a full-on safety meeting on-set, chaired by the 1st AD, which EVERYONE will attend, during which all safety protocols will be made 100% clear. Anyone not attending this meeting in its entirety is BARRED from the set until it's all over. Non-essential personnel (including Friends of the Director and Buddies of the Producer) should also not be around. Best place to see it all is in a nice, comfy theater.
That's also why I would budget for the Armorer to be there at least ONE day during table reads when weapons scenes are discussed and read, and that he be there any day even a toy gun is used on set. One other point "for those in the planning stage" of something like this-- make sure ALL local and regional law enforcement knows what you are doing, and "invite to observe" a high mucky-muck on the county or state level to visit.
That way real cops don't show up-- wanting paperwork, at best-- or with drawn weapons and on edge.
The odds are that the high mucky-muck doesn't show up, but he makes sure EVERYONE knows HE was INVITED to your MOVIE SET for the GUNPLAY DAYS.
Amazing how that works. It's grapevine versus official memo. Memos may be read, but everyone hears the grapevine right then,
Bruce Taylor's Konvas 2M 35mm Motion Picture Camera (with video tap)
On November 03, 2008 at 01:47PM (EST), Lael Camak wrote:
I'm with HW on all of his points. As some of you know, I mostly film military and police simulation. Every day I film it seems we are exploding something or firing a weapon. Primarily, I have worked with revolvers, 9mm semi-auto handguns (mostly Beretta and Glock), M16s, M4s, AK47s, AK74s, Fals, and Browning 50Cal. Machine guns. I could talk a lot about how to get nice muzzle flashes out of those guns but what is more important to me is SAFETY.
Lately I have taken more to adding muzzle flashes, smoke and sfx in post. When we got to where our subject matter experts couldn't distinguish between real and fake gunshots, we dropped shooting the real ones. We can easily and quickly composite very realistic shots now for every weapon (including full auto) with no problem. We've found the best thing, though, is for the actor to hold the gun level and NOT attempt any kind of kickback. We've animated flashes, smoke, and even ejected cartridges flying through the air. Sound is no problem to add, as we've found that recording real gunshots is difficult.
That said, if you HAVE to use blanks, here's a few considerations I practice that come to mind (not all ...I've done this for so long that some things are second nature to me and I'll forget something I'm sure).
1. Before the shoot, get a licensed, qualified, reccomended expert to be the armorer.
2. Start your shoot EACH day with a mandatory crew / cast meeting. Inform EVERYONE that ANYONE at ANYTIME can stop the shoot / shot if they feel something is not quite right / safe / or if they just have a "gut" feeling the weapon or what is about to happen is unsafe or UNCLEAR to all participants. Make sure this is clear to any late arrivals on the set.
3. Close your mandatory meeting with prayer - realize something bigger than you is more in control than you think you are. If you don't know how to pray, write me and I'll send you one (its ok to read one).
4. Watch your armorer like a hawk to see that they exceed YOUR standards. Listen to them. Don't push them too quickly or work them too long.
5. Blanks are extremely dangerous, they can kill, and can cripple, or blind someone for life. Never point a weapon loaded or unloaded toward anything other that WHAT you are supposed to. Otherwise, keep it pointed to the ground.
6. Make sure the actor is 100% comfortable with the weapon; that they know what to do with it before the shot, during the shot, and immediately after "CUT".
7. Have the armorer secure the weapon immediately after the shot. Clear it and pronounce it safe. This is the FIRST thing that happens after CUT. If you have so much going on that your amorer is not close, you should have two armorers. The only way to work is to have ONE person who hands the weapon to the actor and then takes the weapon after cut. Not just anyone standing near should do this. Use the SAME person so it's a rote behavior.
8. Contact your local police jurisdictions. Let them know you will be shooting some blanks. Give them the detail they need. Talk to their dispatch. Find out when their dispatch changes shifts and call them back immediately after the shift change to make sure the new dispatcher knows you're using blanks.
9. Put up large signs that approaching police / or public would see that note "Filming with Blanks".
10. Make sure your amorer, when training an actor, reports loudly (and gives time for people to acknowledge and get ready) when they are about to fire. Several people on the set make a living using their ears.
11. LOOK AFTER YOUR AUDIO ENGINEER. They need their ears like you need your eyes.
12. You should never have to discharge a gun directly down the barrel of a lens. Always have the actor aim below the lens or to the side. Blanks have immense pressure and a stray piece of plastic in the barrel can become a deadly projectile. Protect your lens and camera operator's eyes and ears.
13. Use Hollywood style blanks. NEVER USE anything homemade. Make sure the blanks are manufactured with no wadding and little unspent powder (which can blind someone 10 ft away). I use http://www.centrefirearms.com/
14. Close your shoot with prayer in thanks that God looked after you. You can choose to do this alone if you want, but do the first prayer with the whole cast/crew.
Ok, I've learned some of this the hard way. #8 especially as my actor almost got shot by police responding to gunshots. We had signs, a huge griptruck, and we were shooting in LA county and had their dispatch notified - we just didn't realize we were on the edge of Beverly Hills Police jurisdiction. The cops came up through a side street and ran through another house's yard to get to us. Amazing how with a camera, lights and dozen people standing around that all they managed to see was a lunatic with a gun. Very scary.
Finally, I have fired armorers and subject matter experts off of a shoot. If you see something unsafe and its not immediately addressed, you have to understand NOTHING is as important as LIFE. If you are directing and someone gets shot, its ultimately your fault. Myself, I don't want to live with that.
On November 03, 2008 at 02:12PM (EST), Todd Terry wrote:
I've never done any "fake shooting" with muzzle flashes added later... but if anyone ever tries it, here is something to look out for...
There's a story from Robert Rodriguez from when he was shooting "Once Upon a Time in Mexico." They were staging the big shootout in the church. For some reason they were not able to get their "real" weapons into Mexico in time for the scene, but they did have fake rubber weapons from the props department which would do just fine since they planned to add muzzle flashes, ejecting cartridges, and bullet spays later in post.
Easy, breezey. Or... at least everyone assumed it would be.
There was a lot of actor blocking, a lot of camera movement, and just a lot of elements going on in the scene. The actors were told to simply mime shooting the guns. What they found though, is that it was almost IMPOSSIBLE for the actors to fake the gunshots without actually verbally saying "BANG!" at the same time. Apparently during the excitement of filming a scene with lots of action, they all just reverted to six-year olds playing Cops and Robbers. Despite repeated direction just to mime it, take after take after take was busted as actors continued to say "BANG!" during the miming. Supposedly Antonio Banderas was the worst offender, and simply never could fake a gunshot without the "BANG!"
Funny, huh?
On November 03, 2008 at 02:49PM (EST), Lael Camak wrote:
Ha! Yes, I have had that SAME problem with actors, crew, etc. I have even been guilty of it in demonstrating the blocking. Reminds me of the old bangity-bang joke.
Kinor 5000 - A 35mm Motion Picture Camera Modification by The Aranda Group
On November 03, 2008 at 03:17PM (EST), Rick Garbutt wrote:
An anecdotal piece of lore that I heard from a Toronto colleague.
Crew arrived to set up for a HUGE night shoot. Lots of FX, gunfire, an explosion or twa (as the Scots would say). Flames, much yelling ....
Everyone's nicely into getting ready, setting up stuff, and the radios crackle to life with the barked "Okay! We're going HOT on FX! Roll the cameras!"
Panic ensues, punctuated by cries often abbreviated in Netspeak as WTF?????
The cameras aren't even all off the damn truck yet. Shots are heard, but at an odd distance.
IT SEEMS (the story goes) ANOTHER crew, working ONE street over, was ALSO shooting a big shoot-em-up scene for THEIR movie, and happened to be using the same radio frequency.
Now, whether or not this is some movie legend, there's a good point here:
If you're using bangsticks and heavy FX, it's a good idea for the Locations guys to check that there's NOTHING for at least a mile around the set that could POSSIBLY, in the wackiest chance in 10 million years, snooker you like that. Even one of the "Well! Who'd a thunk?" kind of things. Those are the potentially deadly ones.
And I'd like to thank Lael for so concisely setting out an excellent protocol that we can copy into our own Manuals Of Useful And Potentially Life-Saving Knowledge. And thanks for reminding everyone about our friends in Sound, who'd like to leave with their ears intact!
On November 06, 2008 at 12:31PM (EST), H.W. Stone added:
I will not and do not endorse any of the following companies, but here are links to 8mm blank only guns/ammo. The prices vary a lot, sometimes being twice as much at one vendor as another for both guns and blanks. Please note that not all companies carry all kinds, but revolvers, rifles, pistols, submachineguns, et cetera, are all available, and you can get them that so that they all use the same blanks. That makes logistics a heck of a lot easier.
http://www.8mmblankgun.com/
http://www.starterpistol.com/
http://www.blank-guns-depot.com/blank-firing-guns-store/catalog/Blank-Guns-p-1-c-110.html
http://www.gungarage.com/blank_pistols.htm
Oh, forget it-- just use Google® and search for "8mm blanks" so you don't get the discussion groups.